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The age of the earth, etc.

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The age of the earth, etc.

Postby bengland » Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:44 pm

I'm probably gonna regret this, but I just can't pass up this gauntlet.
Professor John wrote:I would love to start such a separate topic; however, it would probably lead nowhere. Anyone really and truly up for the topic? Are you willing to have a truly respectful discussion? Can you enter into it without terms like, "faux science, craziness, etc?" If so, let's do it. If not, your loss.

If we do this, bring your facts, data, logic...not smart remarks. This could be a fascinating discussion...

I'm not sure Prof. John what your views are, but you imply that they lie outside the scientific mainstream and are the result of decades of study and research on your part. Please elaborate.

I'm perfectly willing to engage in a respectful discussion, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to use terms like pseudo-science, because there's simply no other good way to label thought that uses the language of science but not the method.

As for my decades of study, I have a PhD in Biochemistry from Berkeley, awarded in 1990. Until last year I worked in pharmaceutical research. I haven't studied geology, cosmology and physics, but I have a level of familiarity better than most non-scientists.

I maintain that the earth is unquestionably billions of years old, but I say that with only the vaguest notion of the actual evidence involved -- because its not my field! It's enough for me that this question is considered settled by all reputable scientists who do know the data backwards and forwards. Since biology is my field I'm much more conversant with the evidence that microscopic life arose on earth around 3 billion years ago and has since been elaborated into the myriad forms we see today by Darwinian evolution. Shall we start there?

Bruce
Last edited by bengland on Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The age of Earth.

Postby twolilhahas » Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:32 pm

The first video, "The Age of the Earth," has successfully convinced me that the earth is only thousands of years old.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_vi ... plate.html
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Re: The age of Earth.

Postby Vorotyntsev » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:01 pm

twolilhahas wrote:The first video, "The Age of the Earth," has successfully convinced me that the earth is only thousands of years old.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_vi ... plate.html


Just in the first five minutes he made several mistakes. The Big Bang theory (which has nothing to do with evolution) does not say the universe was created from nothing. As for his four meaning-of-life questions, evolution says nothing about them, one way or the other. I didn't listen to the rest as this guy is sadly misinformed.
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Postby Lilly » Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:59 pm

PLEASE know that Kent Hovind (from the video you linked) is NOT representative of most creationists. Frankly, he's kind of a wacko and is regularly thrown in jail for tax evasion and the like. Although I agree with his basic principles (the earth is only thousands of years old, created by God in seven literal days, etc.), I do not support most of his methods of arguing his points. And it's dangerous to be as passionate as he is when you are well-meaning but misinformed.

(Although, if you can find a clip of his interview on the Ali G show, it's pretty hilarious. Suffice it to say that he did not realize the show is a joke.)

I'll go into detail later on my beliefs on creation, age of the earth, etc. I'll jump in once the thread heats up.
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Oh.

Postby twolilhahas » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:13 pm

I think he made several good points. He also showed several textbooks in which it was stated that the earth was made from nothing. I don't know anything about his personal life but I know that he gave me a lot to think about.
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Postby Sean » Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:44 pm

My local newspaper unfortunately does not have a free archive or I would link to the articles on Hovind being charged with multiple counts of tax evasion. He is a bit off, if you ask me. Quite the character, though. I remember the picture they ran in the paper showed him passing out business cards as he left the courthouse.

--Sean
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Re: The age of Earth.

Postby twolilhahas » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:22 am

Vorotyntsev wrote:
twolilhahas wrote:The first video, "The Age of the Earth," has successfully convinced me that the earth is only thousands of years old.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/audio_vi ... plate.html


Just in the first five minutes he made several mistakes. The Big Bang theory (which has nothing to do with evolution) does not say the universe was created from nothing. As for his four meaning-of-life questions, evolution says nothing about them, one way or the other. I didn't listen to the rest as this guy is sadly misinformed.


How was the universe created according to the Big Bang? Been a while since I studied that in high school. Seems like I remember that there is still no explanation for how everything that supposedly made the universe got here in the first place.

As far as the four meaning-of-life questions, logically, if we evolved then the meaning of life is pretty well described by his four meanings. Whether or not those four meanings are physically taught alongside evolution, it's the logical thing to pick up.

I think you should give him a chance to get into his lecture. Five minutes isn't a fair shake.
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Postby JenLee » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:29 am

I'm asking this out of genuine, snark-free curiosity: How do people who believe that the earth is only a couple of thousand years old explain carbon dating?
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Me, personally.

Postby twolilhahas » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:54 am

I can't speak for everyone and I'm no expert but I believe that uniformitarianism is false. I think the world was completely different pre-flood (Biblical flood). If things were different then you can't use today's numbers to explain yesterday.
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Postby krf100 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 6:54 am

I think this conversation needs to begin with a few parameters, no?

I think the two schools of thought are ~ 6000 years, and ~ 4.5 billion years. Is this correct?
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Estimate.

Postby twolilhahas » Wed Aug 23, 2006 7:03 am

Six-thousand years is an estimate but I'd say it's close.
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Postby Lilly » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:13 am

krf100 wrote:I think this conversation needs to begin with a few parameters, no?

I think the two schools of thought are ~ 6000 years, and ~ 4.5 billion years. Is this correct?


Yes, this is correct. Then, there is also the question of creation vs. evolution.

I am a "young earth" creationist, meaning I believe the earth was created by God 6-10 thousands years ago, as described in the Genesis account (seven literal days).

What do "old earth" creationists believe? From what I have read, many believe that God created everything, but that the "days" described in Genesis are actually long periods of time. Some believe that evolution took place over these long periods of time.

I was always taught that evolutionists believe the earth started with the "Big Bang", and then evolved over billions of years to its present state. I have not studied this in a while, so I would appreciate clarification on the details of what non-creationists believe about the origin of the earth.

I'll do a little more research and post more later. I'm looking forward to an interesting and civil discussion. :)
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Postby krf100 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 8:32 am

OK, but then, just to muddy things up a bit, there is another school of thought that maintains the creation (in the broadest sense) of Earth and the creation (again using the word in the broadest sense) of man are two distinctly different events.

Limited explanation: the Earth may have been created by whatever means 6000 years ago or 4 billion years ago, but man was created or deposited, or whatever, independently of that event. The oldest skeletal remains are now estimated between 130 and 190 thousand years old, which on the surface seems to be as hard to reconcile with the earth being 4 billion years old as it is with the earth being 6 thousand years old.

I'm not trying to get all "Chariots of the Gods" on everyone, just suggesting that the argument is far wider than first blush would make it out to be.
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Postby twolilhahas » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:36 am

krf100 wrote:OK, but then, just to muddy things up a bit, there is another school of thought that maintains the creation (in the broadest sense) of Earth and the creation (again using the word in the broadest sense) of man are two distinctly different events.

Limited explanation: the Earth may have been created by whatever means 6000 years ago or 4 billion years ago, but man was created or deposited, or whatever, independently of that event. The oldest skeletal remains are now estimated between 130 and 190 thousand years old, which on the surface seems to be as hard to reconcile with the earth being 4 billion years old as it is with the earth being 6 thousand years old.

I'm not trying to get all "Chariots of the Gods" on everyone, just suggesting that the argument is far wider than first blush would make it out to be.


Those dates assume uniformitarianism is true. They assume that processes on earth have been the same since the earth began. I don't think that's true. I think the flood changed everything.
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Postby krf100 » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:44 am

I think the flood changed everything.


With all due respect, you are assuming there was a flood and that, if thre was, it changed everything.
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Yep.

Postby twolilhahas » Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:47 am

Of course.
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Re: The age of Earth.

Postby Vorotyntsev » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:24 am

twolilhahas wrote:How was the universe created according to the Big Bang? Been a while since I studied that in high school. Seems like I remember that there is still no explanation for how everything that supposedly made the universe got here in the first place.

As far as the four meaning-of-life questions, logically, if we evolved then the meaning of life is pretty well described by his four meanings. Whether or not those four meanings are physically taught alongside evolution, it's the logical thing to pick up.

I think you should give him a chance to get into his lecture. Five minutes isn't a fair shake.


Hovind's main argument seems to be that the Bible is right and scientists are wrong, supplemented with lame put-downs (American Communist Lawyers Union; National Pornographic), jokes (some of which are funny: Why did God create Adam first? Because he didn't want a lot of advice on how to do it), and pseudo-science.

There is no explanation for how everything that supposedly made the universe got here in the first place because the Big Bang theory does not address that. It merely describes what happened at the beginning of time. The universe was concentrated into what is called a singularity. The theory does not say how the singularity got there. This singularity expanded rapidly and is still expanding. The earth came to be when the solar system coalesced out of cosmic dust about 5 billion years ago.

Evolution says nothing about meaning-of-life questions. The answers Hovind comes up with do not follow logically at all but are his skewed interpretation of evolution science.
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A joke

Postby Vorotyntsev » Wed Aug 23, 2006 11:29 am

God made Redundant
    A group of scientists convened and decided that mankind no longer needed God. One of their group was appointed to go and tell God.
    So the appointed scientist went to God and said: "God, or Mr. God, we have unlocked the secrets of the Universe, and we can create life in the laboratory. We no longer need you."
    God replied, "Fine, I'll go quietly. But first, let's have a little contest. Let's both make a man as I made Adam."
    So the scientist said, "OK," and scooped up a handful of dirt.
    And God said, "Get yer own dirt."
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Re: The age of Earth.

Postby John » Wed Aug 23, 2006 1:44 pm

Vorotyntsev wrote:There is no explanation for how everything that supposedly made the universe got here in the first place because the Big Bang theory does not address that. It merely describes what happened at the beginning of time.


I would not call it the beginning of time. If there was a Big Bang, there must have been time before the Big Bang. It is the same reason I do not believe the universe has an end point. Imagine you're at what scientists call the end of the universe. The end of the universe is one inch away. What happens if you stick your hand through that end point? There must be something on the other side, even if that something is nothing.
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Postby Xenkylm » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:05 pm

This will be a long post. Since we are all human (probably), please do nit-pick my post if you notice glaring errors or the intrusion of opinion over fact:

I don't have much to offer to the discussion by way of physics or geology for this discussion (my background is in cognitive psychology), beyond those same perspectives regarding science in general, as offered by bengland above. There is a very specific problem with most debates in which the term "pseudo-science" is used, and often it seems to be an emotional one:

The term pseudo-science is defined perfectly, in my opinion, by Bengland's first post. "Thought that uses the language of science but not the method." This is generally how the term is used by the accusors (i.e. those taking the counter-view). The same term tends to be interpreded by the accused, however, as an insult (e.g. pseudo-science = "you're wrong" or "you're crazy"). It is most certainly not intended as an insult. Pseudo-science has a definition, and certain schools of thought fit that definition. Nothing more, nothing less. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience)

In my earlier days studying philosophy, there seemed to be a distinction between true scientific thought and valid philosophical thought which is worth repeating here: Philosophical debates often value what is "possible" (i.e. all hypothetical scenarios are technically equal, as long as they have not been proven false), while most scientific debates value what is "probable" (i.e. the best argument is that which explains the most data). This audience probably does not need a primer on the difference between a scientific theory and a colloquial theory, so let's stick to the previous point.

The term pseudo-science is often applied to certain ideas (e.g. young earth, intelligent design, etc.) because they either are not established according to the regulations of scientific theories, or simply not supported by empirical data. This does not mean that the ideas are "false," any more than it means that the accepted scientific theories are "true," but simply that they fail certain tests of scientific rigor, and do not adequately explain what is observable about the world. In the scientific community, the "young earth" view is probably discarded for these reasons. The goal is to explain as much of the world as possible while assuming as little as possible to fill in the gaps, and if a viewpoint must posit additional assumptions to account for evidence that it contradicts, then the burden of proof is on those researchers to show that those assumptions are valid. Nearly every scientific field (as far as I can tell) follows this pattern.

I will give an example of a stance in psychology that is generally viewed as pseudoscience, but has still served a valuable purpose in the scientific community. J.J. Gibson, a researcher in the sixties, was pretty much fed up with the behaviorists, researchers who essentially viewed the brain as a computer that took the world as input and pooped out the output. To those researchers, the world had no influence on the processes of the brain aside from to-be-crunched numbers, and the brain was uninfluenced by its environment. Gibson proposed a revolutionary theory: the environment and the brain worked together to solve problems via "affordances," definite properties of the world that vary according to experience. Thus, it was not necessary for the brain to calculate the relative motion of objects in the periphery to determine its speed, but instead speed was a result of learned contingencies between "what you see now" and "how things look when they're moving fast." In his opinion, no internal computations were necessary, only the matching of the current world-view to learned contingencies.

Was he right? Well, yes and no. In the years since his research, fMRI data and ERP data have shown that we do in fact perform many computations on the visual world. On the other hand, ignoring the influence of the environment on perception is no longer generally accepted in the psychological community (indeed, this shift in focus has led to many sub-fields, and new understanding of phenomena such as change blindness and optical illusions [which are both SO cool, we should have a thread about it]). Thus, proponents of Gibsons original view today would be viewed as following a pseudoscience, since overwhelming evidence contradicts the strong form of that argument, but the view itself was extremely valuable to science as a whole.

To sum up for those who didn't really want to read a long post:

1a) Pseudoscience is a real word for a real category of ideas. It is not an insult.
1b) There is, and should be, a difference between what is possible and what is likely (given replicated and converging evidence)
2) Views that may have originally been classified as 'science' may, due to overwhelming evidence against them, be considered pseudoscience if pursued without adequately explaining the contradictory evidence.
3) The goal of any researcher should be to explain as much of the world as possible with the fewest unexplained assumptions about the world.

Finally, since the internet is a crass and biased place, I highly recommend this wikipedia entry on the age of the earth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_earth

Interestingly enough, for you trivia buffs (and i'm including this because i found it neat, not to prove any point), eastern religions apparently plop the earth down at between tens of millions or billions of years, while western religions have, as we know, been much more conservative.
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Re: The age of Earth.

Postby bengland » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:17 pm

John wrote:If there was a Big Bang, there must have been time before the Big Bang.
This is a common misunderstanding. As with most of modern physics I can't get my mind comfortably wrapped around it either, but that doesn't make it nonsense! Hawking uses the analogy that talking about time before the big bang is meaningless in the same way that it is impossible to continue proceeding north from the north pole. That's about the only thing I retained from his little bestseller.
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Postby Lilly » Wed Aug 23, 2006 2:52 pm

Xenkylm, thanks for the explanation of pseudo-science. I remember learning about it on Bill Nye the Science Guy, but I had forgotten the real definition.

With that said, I think all discussion on the origin of earth/life is relegated to the realm of pseudo-science. There is no way to use the scientific method to discover the age of the earth. Even the commonly used "dating methods" (no, I'm not talking about eHarmony, I mean like carbon dating)...anyways, the methods of dating rocks/fossils/etc. assume that uniformitarianism holds true. On the other hand, creationists assume that there was a worldwide flood that drastically changed a lot of things. There is no way to actually test things like that without your own assumptions helping to interpret the data.

And since there was no scientist present at the origin of the earth, we have no way of proving what did or did not happen. As a creationist, I believe that since God was the only one there, His eyewitness account is accurate. Someone who does not believe in God or does not believe that he created the world cannot possibly come to the same conclusion as I do. In a way, it's futile to argue, since neither side can prove their case. But it sure is fun to argue :)
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Postby Xenkylm » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:02 pm

Lilly wrote:On the other hand, creationists assume that there was a worldwide flood that drastically changed a lot of things.


Well the problem with that particular reasoning, as I understand it, is that much of the evidence for an "old earth" actually comes from things that aren't on the earth at all. For example, if you can demonstrate that the age of particles from asteroids (which, presumably, would not have been influenced by the flood) have aged at the same rate as similar particles on earth, then you can start to reasonably draw comparisons between the ages of the two. To argue that the flood changed things, then, you would have to also argue either that the flood also influenced objects that were not on the earth, or that the age of objects in the solar system is independent of the age of the earth.

However, before we jump to the conclusion that the age of the earth is an inherently pseudo-science concept, remember that there is no prerequisite in science for "having been there" (much of science relies on things that cannot be observed directly, psychology in particular!). Instead, the requirements are essentially that the assumptions you're making are testable and falsifiable. The earth appears to be comprised of much the same stuff as the rest of the solar system, which can be relatively easily tested now that we have fancy telescopes and such. If the rate of accumulation of 'space dust,' for example, was different on the earth than on other planets, and if we could not attribute that difference to the role of our atmosphere, then perhaps we could argue that the earth was created by an alternative process and at a different time. The evidence, however, does not appear to support that claim (hence, that particular claim would persist only as pseudoscience, while not specifically 'false'). Additionally (if I've been reading these papers correctly), there does not appear to be any evidence that the rate of decay in radioactive isotopes could be altered by weather, or much else for that matter (which makes them particularly useful for dating). For the flood explanation to, ahem, hold water, it must be demonstrated that such a process could dramatically alter the rate of radioactive decay. In the absence of such data, the flood explanation fails to be parsimonious with the data.

I cannot stress enough that i'm trying to stay away from saying that one explanation is "right" and another is "wrong." I AM saying, though, that there is substantial converging evidence in support of an "old earth," and very very very little evidence in favor of the alternative. It is absolutely false to say that there is a similar quantity of evidence in support of both views. My personal preference is to, by default, adhere to whatever theory explains the most data. At the moment, and for the foreseeable future, the "old earth" is the theory that fits that description.

To change my mind, you must fill in the gaps described above.
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Postby NeilFraudstrong » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:16 pm

I am for creationism, the Big Bang, and evolution.

WHO'S WITH ME?
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Postby Xenkylm » Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:18 pm

NeilFraudstrong wrote:I am for creationism, the Big Bang, and evolution.

WHO'S WITH ME?


only if you invite my friend "beer before liquor"
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