UNFAIR Final Jeopardy Question For Broadcast of January 2012

[edvz]

The Jeopardy! show's feedback and message boards are diasbled
now, (hackers???) so I was unable to send my opinion to the
producers.

So what does the Jennings crowd think about it?
(Please vote on it, if you can).

On Jan 18, the show asked for name of the man
whose son's dead body washed up on the shore
of the island of Ikarios?

The category was FATHERS & SONS.

The answer was Daedalus!

My opinion is that is wrong to ask contestants for a
FACT for a final response (going by BOTH the Category
and Clue here), when the answer you are expecting is
FICTION.

To me, it would be different if the category would have been
MYTHICAL FATHERS. say.

I believe the producers made a big BOBO there, and I feel
sorry for the contestants who wracked their brains, looking for
some historical figure, (and lost the game as a result),
when in fact there was no such person.

Unless you already knew the significance of Ikarios name, and maybe
even forgotten that the Final Jeopardy question was asking for a fact,
you'd have no chance to figure it out, in my opinion

In fact from the question and answer alone, you would never know
it was about people that never existed and something that never
happened. To my mind, this shows how badly conceived and posed
it was.

[Lantzy]

As long as Final Jeopardy isn't yet another question about Oscar winners, I'm happy.

As for whether the question is unfair, I refer you to an apocryphal anecdote about Bertrand Russell:

While protesting against the bomb, Russell and his fellow demonstrators were beaten by the police. Afterwards he was asked by a reporter if he thought his treatment unfair. He replied, "No, I regard it as unjust. It would have been unfair if some of the demonstrators had been beaten and others had not been beaten, but we were all beaten equally. Therefore it was fair."

The same applies to Final Jeopardy. The question may have been misleading, but it must be regarded as fair, because all the contestants were subjected to it.

[edvz]

[quote="Lantzy"]The same applies to Final Jeopardy. The question may have been misleading, but it must be regarded as fair, because all the contestants were subjected to it.[/quote]

To misquote from Macbeth, (or maybe Yogi Berra):

"So Fair a Foul I Have Not Seen Before!"

Dr. Spock was of course just being funny.

Also, I think Jeopardy! is a show about human knowledge
mainly, and when it starts to deliberately blur lines
between fact and fiction, then it stops being that.

[Muskrat]

The category was "Fathers and Sons," not "real life fathers and sons," "human fathers and sons" or "historically accurate fathers and sons," any of which would be a more restrictive subset. It could have been about John and John Quincy Adams, Joseph and Jesus, Huck and Papp Finn, male seahorses and the offspring they carry, the number of fathers associated with victory and defeat respectively, or Daedalus and Icarus. It's just a general description of a broad category, not a guarantee of any particular subject matter.

[edvz]

[quote="Muskrat"]The category was "Fathers and Sons," not "real life fathers and sons,"[/quote]

Okay Alex, I'll take "Real Life Trees and Flowers for $800". "Okay, now I'd like "Real Life Before
and After for $1600".... isn't going to happen.

Alas I see the voting is going against me, but here`s something someone else (not me)
had to say on JBoard.tv about it:

``I saw "Ikaria" and thought Icarus->Daedalus right away, but backed away because the clue gave literally no hint that they were looking for someone fictitious. Evil evil clue.``

[Whatsahoe]

Not as bad as the one where the final category was "transportation" and the clue/answer was about when the first stop sign was introduced.
Since when is a stop sign "transportation" based

[ArtVark]

I have seen a whole bunch of questions on Jeopardy and many other trivia
games where the answer expected is a fictional character or event. Many times
it's easier to figure out that the answer is fictional but still, the expected answer to:

Which of Santa Claus's reindeer has a name that starts with the letter V?

is Vixen, not "no such animal."

[BrennerM]

One of the contestants got the correct answer (i.e. question) so clearly this was not an impossible question.

[rudolpha]

No, it wasn't unfair. I got it immediately, and I'm no expert on Greek mythology!

[Don WW]

By the way, Muskrat, Joseph was not Jesus' father.

[pikeprof]

I once posted about an FJ question that I loved and was run over the coals about how unfair it was because James Brolin's turn as Ronald Reagan wasn't seen by many people. I think it's "gettable." Also, I kind of like questions I don't know the answer to. In this context, I can't say if I would've answered correctly or not. Had I watched this show, I think I would've said, "oh yeah, good question." It gives a fair amount of clues and is not intentionally misleading and the two characters WERE son and father.

[Muskrat]

By the way, Muskrat, Joseph was not Jesus' father.

Stepfather. Foster father. Adoptive father. Strong male role model in life of working class kid. First ever participant in "Big Brothers and Big Sisters of Galilee." If Heather can have two mommies ... It's a, what do you call it, "blended family." Exactly the kind of relativistic, nontraditional do-what-feels-right, make it up as you go along moral anarchy that drives certain people up a wall.

And therefore a good hook for a ridiculously easy J! clue: "This blended family was headed by a carpenter, but the son hung out with fishermen and talked about shepherds." Firs in "Fathers and Sons," "Religion," "Occupations," etc.

[Dobie]

22 When the time came for the purification rites required by the Law of Moses, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord .... 33 The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him.


41 Every year Jesus’ parents went to Jerusalem for the Festival of the Passover.
48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, “Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you.”

[jzerocsk]

Not as bad as the one where the final category was "transportation" and the clue/answer was about when the first stop sign was introduced.
Since when is a stop sign "transportation" based

I can't speak for all 50 states, but in both PA and NJ stop signs and other "traffic control devices" are regulated by the state Dept. Of Transportation, so it seems legit to me.

[Ken Jennings]

Yeah, that seems like an odd objection. How could this item--which is ONLY used to regulate transportation--possibly fall under a transportation category?!? What if the answer was, like, "Henry Ford"? He's not a form of transportation either.

The Icarus thing is just fine too. Many Jeopardy clues require the players to determine the right framing: real vs. fictional, etc. (And that's setting aside the fact that there may well have been a historical Daedalus.)

[edvz]

[quote="pikeprof"]It gives a fair amount of clues and is not intentionally misleading and the two characters WERE son and father.[/quote]

The question states as a flat fact that the son's body washed
up on the shore - the son is only fictiional, so this is not true.

On the other hand, had they used the words "according to myth", then
I'm sure everyone would have gotten it - the question is only challenging
because it is intentionally misleading.

[edvz]

[quote="Ken Jennings"]Many Jeopardy clues require the players to determine the right framing: real vs. fictional, etc. (And that's setting aside the fact that there may well have been a historical Daedalus.)[/quote]

In this case, there is just no hint at all that they were asking for
a fictional person. (Mind you, I don't believe many Greek places are named
after real people, so that mightve been it!)

I will look up those kinds of Jeopardy clues, and see if I agree.

[Ken Jennings]

Yes, that is what "determine the right framing" means: the clue is specifically (and intentionally) silent on whether the people in question are real or not. Given this silence, either reading is valid. And the Ikarios->Icarus->Daedalus! logic is straightforward enough that I don't even see the real vs. myth thing as an intentional trap or left turn.

The question states as a flat fact that the son's body washed up on the shore - the son is only fictiional, so this is not true.

That's dumb, as per the reindeer example above. You might as well say "The clue states that Hamlet lives in Denmark, but Hamlet is fictional, so this is not true."

[edvz]

[i]Yes, that is what "determine the right framing" means: the clue is specifically (and intentionally) silent on whether the people in question are real or not. Given this silence, either reading is valid.[/i]

To me silence betokens consent under the law, but very little else intrinsically.
But I think you're right... the broad category was a sign to be cautious and
assume very little.

[i]the Ikarios->Icarus->Daedalus! logic is straightforward enough that I don't
even see the real vs. myth thing as an intentional trap or left turn.[/i]

Again, the Icarus legend is so well known that it is unlikely that any of the
contestants would have missed it, had they known that the answer might be
myth or legend.

[quote]The question states as a flat fact that the son's body washed up on the shore - the son is only fictiional, so this is not true.[/quote]

[i]
That's dumb, as per the reindeer example above. You might as well say "The clue states that Hamlet lives in Denmark, but Hamlet is fictional, so this is not true."[/i]

I meant, it could not have actually happened, so untrue
in that sense (not in the logical sense of the word).

Again, everyone knows that Santa Claus and Hamlet are fictional.
But there isn't a single overt detail in the Category and Clue for the question
that implies overtly they were looking for a fictional answer

And not every viewer knows that Daedalus is myth. To my
mind, that limits the show as even having any educational
value.

Maybe that's why Trebek mentioned the flying part, given
his scholastic quizmaster background. The current producers
probably don't care all that much.

[Ken Jennings]

Again, the Icarus legend is so well known that it is unlikely that any of the
contestants would have missed it, had they known that the answer might be
myth or legend.

Disagree. People miss FJs all the time that I think are easy, and get ones right that I think are hard.

I meant, it could not have actually happened, so untrue in that sense (not in the logical sense of the word).

That doesn't even make sense. Icarus washing up on a seashore "could actually have happened" just as easily as many events in Shakespeare.

Maybe that's why Trebek mentioned the flying part, given
his scholastic quizmaster background. The current producers
probably don't care all that much.

You are dead wrong, if you will take the word of someone who's been there for months on end. The writers and producers care deeply about every nuance of the game material (which is one reason why this clue is just fine, as everyone in this thread is trying to convince you). Trebek just reads it.

The clue is fine. Often, Jeopardy clues about fictional events are in the present tense, so maybe "washed up" threw you, but that's pretty much how the clue has to work, since the second clause ("later named") has to stay in the past tense. And using the past tense for mytho-historic events like Greek legends isn't unheard of, on Jeopardy or elsewhere.

[pikeprof]

Yeah, that seems like an odd objection. How could this item--which is ONLY used to regulate transportation--possibly fall under a transportation category?!? What if the answer was, like, "Henry Ford"? He's not a form of transportation either.

The elder Ford was probably a form of transportation for his son at some point, so I think that's valid.

From the little I know about quiz show writing, you HAVE to care. Coming up with questions is there job for pete's sake. If Steve Tamerius was involved in this question in any way, and he probably was, that man's whole life has been dedicated to writing questions.

[Alex Boisvert]

By the way, Muskrat, Joseph was not Jesus' father.

The people who wrote the New Testament clearly thought he was, because both genealogies of Jesus go through Joseph.

[edvz]

Disagree. People miss FJs all the time that I think are easy, and get ones right that I think are hard.

Here they didn't have the fact that it might be myth, and the misleading question and their assumption
cost them.

That doesn't even make sense. Icarus washing up on a seashore "could actually have happened" just as
easily as many events in Shakespeare.

I can't vouch for Shakespeare, but the Icarus flight is just myth.

The writers and producers care deeply about every nuance of the game material

If they did, then viewers would know by the time the answer was given if a question
had been about something fictitious or not.

(which is one reason why this clue is just fine, as everyone in this thread is trying to convince you).
Trebek just reads it.

Yes, apparently the Jennings crowd just follows your opinion, irregardless.
Your discussion about tenses isn't terribly relevant either.

Again, only Alex mentioned the Icarus legend explicitly - it's not in the written clue
or the expected answer. So he didn't "just read it".

[grodney]

Last night the Trivia Guy asked: What president is on the U.S. 100 dollar bill? [emphasis mine]

Seeing how he is known for getting the occasional fact wrong, and has the occasional Jager while hosting, we figured he just messed up the question, so we wrote "Franklin".

Turns out it was his idea of a "trick question" and he was looking for "none". Now THAT'S an unfair question. Or dumb.

I know this is kind of a "cool story bro", but it didn't seem all that out of place. That is all.

[jzerocsk]

Category Fathers & Sons
The ghost of this prince's murdered father appeared to him at a castle in Denmark.


Frankly, if you somehow call this out in the category as literary or fictional or Shakespearean or whatever it becomes way too obvious - it is Final Jeopardy, after all...it's not supposed to be a gimme.