Could quiz bowl be televised successfully?

[Ken Jennings]

I have comments disabled on the blog (for the moment) in hopees of driving traffic to the message boards, but I don't know if that will be effective or not. To lower the barrier to entry for would-be commenters, I thought I'd try creating a thread here specifically for conversation on selected blog posts.

For example: Sunday's bit on how quiz bowl (and other quizzing-type games) would fare on TV these days. So, what say you? Why has the quiz program virtually disappeared from American TV, when similar games still thrive on the telly in the UK, among other places? Do you think quiz could be just as telegenic as spelling or, heaven help us, rock-paper-scissors? Would you watch a televised quiz tournament?

When Greg Lindsay was writing a magazine piece on quiz bowl last year, he interviewed me, asking questions like these, and I answered pretty cynically: quiz games will always be a niche pastime, I said, and for a very small niche. But now, the more I think about it, why the hell not? Scrabble is on ESPN2, for crying out loud. Isn't trivia as fun as Scrabble?

[JRaygor]

For example: Sunday's bit on how quiz bowl (and other quizzing-type games) would fare on TV these days. So, what say you? Why has the quiz program virtually disappeared from American TV, when similar games still thrive on the telly in the UK, among other places? Do you think quiz could be just as telegenic as spelling or, heaven help us, rock-paper-scissors? Would you watch a televised quiz tournament?

Interesting question. I think something like a Quiz Bowl could possibly work on PBS. Something like a Quiz Bowl doesn't need big flashy sets with state-of-the-art graphics or massive cash prizes to make it watchable.

I hear NBC is bringing something called "1 vs. 100" soon to primetime which is a quiz based game, we'll see if a show like that can still survive on TV today.

Speaking of UK games: I wish someone would bring "Countdown" to the USA.

-Joe R.

[MFalk]

For example: Sunday's bit on how quiz bowl (and other quizzing-type games) would fare on TV these days. So, what say you? Why has the quiz program virtually disappeared from American TV, when similar games still thrive on the telly in the UK, among other places? Do you think quiz could be just as telegenic as spelling or, heaven help us, rock-paper-scissors? Would you watch a televised quiz tournament?

I think a huge part of watching quiz games is empathy for the players. The trivia itself is interesting to some; the act of playing along is interesting to some. But being excited for a contestant who gets a question right, or feeling their pain when they miss, is a key part of the experience for the audience. Think of Twenty-One, with its blockbuster ratings in the 1950s. The contestants sweated, stammered, and stalled on live TV, and the audience ate it up. WWTBAM has a lot of the same element to it, where we watch a contestant think aloud, agonize, debate, and eventually come to a painstakingly-crafted decision.

Quiz bowlers aren't taught to show emotion-- win or lose, a cool disinterest is the demeanor most players seem to cultivate. I think it'd be considered bad sportsmanship at many tournaments to openly celebrate a victory or show frustration at defeat. This might be one big obstacle to a loyal television audience for a quiz bowl program-- how can the audience cheer for someone who doesn't appear to care himself?

When Greg Lindsay was writing a magazine piece on quiz bowl last year, he interviewed me, asking questions like these, and I answered pretty cynically: quiz games will always be a niche pastime, I said, and for a very small niche. But now, the more I think about it, why the hell not? Scrabble is on ESPN2, for crying out loud. Isn't trivia as fun as Scrabble?

I think that it is a niche but perhaps not as small as one might think. (The mainstream seems much more taken with Deal or No Deal.) With the abundance of cable channels out there, someone might to be willing to take a risk on it as PBS in Minnesota did. I don't know what kind of ratings Scrabble or the Spelling Bee bring in, but apparently they're "good enough" to warrant their continued televising. I bet a quiz program could do the same-- bring that niche in and garner respectable ratings.

I agree that it wouldn't need to be high-stakes or flashy, just fun.

[Dactyl]

It would probably only be a hit if you made people eat bugs for missing the question.

Of course that would make for some great incentive to do a lot of 'boning up.'

In all seriousness, I think it might work, but with the notoriously short attention span of the general public I fear it might be a doomed existence.

[DadofTwins]

As I see it, there are three obstacles to a successful TV quiz:

1. One and Done. You lose, you're done, and barring special circumstances are never seen again. This limits a quiz audience to those who either enjoy the game itself or -- in the case of the more drama-inducing games like BAM or the Spelling Bee -- watch to see people squirm. What poker, NASCAR, and golf have cultivated that quizzing hasn't is the opportunity for players to develop a following. Much of this is a byproduct of federal law; the Quiz Show scandals of the 50s made a career as a quiz player virtually impossible. For quizzing to become successful on the order of poker or even the Spelling Bee, there needs to be a chance to see players more than once.

2. The Luck Factor. No matter how good a player you are, there is always the chance that in one self-contained, 30-minute episode the questions are not going to fall your way. Poker overcomes this by the sheer number of hands in a tournament. A player who gets to the final table at the WSOP Main Event will see over a thousand hands in four days. There are only so many questions you can ask in 30 minutes, especially if you HAVE to have a winner at the end.

3. Teams or Individuals? I have yet to see a TV quiz designed to by played by teams that could not be dominated by one really good player. If you want a high school or college show to be school-based, there needs to be an element that requires a deep team. Matt Ottinger's show comes close with its head-to-head rounds. The "Deep Bench" format I read about on the NAQT website is a good step in that direction. Of course, if you emphasize individuals over teams, you remove any incentive for schools to encourage the activity.

I don't think these obstacles are insurmountable. If ESPN can be convinced to throw its publicity machine behind a well-designed quiz tour, it might have a shot.

[jcrmoon42]

I have been thinking about this for several years now, ever since I got involved as a moderator with the National Academic Championship back in 2001. Please reserve your flaming about my association with NAC for some other board. I've heard enough of it elsewhere. Nobody's perfect.

Anyway, I absolutely think it could work. I think that the biggest roadblock is that people are always looking for a "TV friendly" format. This assumes that you are going to show every second of a match on the show. Why do this? Why not edit it together in a more entertaining way? You could also include some human interest-type stuff. People love that. That is what the Spelling Bee folks did, and it seemed to do fairly well.

Quiz Bowlers can be very interesting people. You just have to help "normal" folks get into their heads.

You know, if I had a bunch of extra money sitting around and a name everyone recognized, I would jump on this idea TOMORROW.

[Dactyl]

Another issue might be corporate sponsorship. Gingko Biloba perhaps ?

Unless some advertiser thinks it will make them money it isn't going to happen very likely.

[Ken Jennings]

Some good posts here.

I agree that the non-telegenic thing could be a feature, not a bug, if you shoot a little B-roll and let the audience really get to know the freakshow. Um, and I mean "freakshow" in the nicest possible way.

The empathy problem is huge though. Millionaire and the spelling bee each have one player, alone, out under the hot lights. Quiz bowl is typically four-on-four, which is inherently less dramatic: it diffuses the apparent pressure, and makes it harder to "get to know" each player. Plus these players will be older than the adorable spelling bee tykes.

ABC's spelling bee ratings were, sadly, not so hot. A 7 share and third place (though, by the end, it was beating an Office rerun on NBC). I doubt those numbers, by themselves, are going to get quiz bowl greenlit on network prime time anytime soon. But, though I can't be too specific, I know there are some conversations going on right now about some TV possibilities for quiz bowl, both with networks and possible corporate sponsors. So you never know.

jrcmoon42, don't worry, you'll be free from NAC-flaming here. You have every other quiz bowl board on the Internet for that.

[MC PM]

For example: Sunday's bit on how quiz bowl (and other quizzing-type games) would fare on TV these days. So, what say you? Why has the quiz program virtually disappeared from American TV, when similar games still thrive on the telly in the UK, among other places? Do you think quiz could be just as telegenic as spelling or, heaven help us, rock-paper-scissors? Would you watch a televised quiz tournament?

Interesting question. I think something like a Quiz Bowl could possibly work on PBS. Something like a Quiz Bowl doesn't need big flashy sets with state-of-the-art graphics or massive cash prizes to make it watchable.

I hear NBC is bringing something called "1 vs. 100" soon to primetime which is a quiz based game, we'll see if a show like that can still survive on TV today.

Speaking of UK games: I wish someone would bring "Countdown" to the USA.

-Joe R.

Actually, the local PBS station here in Richmond used to host Battle of the Brains when it was temporarily known as "Challenge 23," though all the records are kept up as if it were the same show, and it basically is/was. Currently CBS 6 hosts Battle of the Brains, which is written by NAQT but has a slightly dumbed-down less pyramidal question quality. The big challenge with getting quizbowl shows aired on a large scale is having questions that are written for quality and not just so the average joe will always get it and think he's the best trivia/academia expert in the world.

With the UK, local "quizzes" are often held in pubs and such and everything is done in a less serious, more fun-loving manner. I would point to the contrast of the popularity of quiz shows in the UK to the number of UK teams at the university-level NAQT ICT (zero, for the past couple years). Let's face it, the less serious you are about the quality of the actual competition involved in a quizbowl program, the more likely it is to be aired.

That said, I think it's ridiculous that Scrabble and spelling bees are on ESPN/ABC and yet there is no national quizbowl show. The RPS thing on A&E sort of makes sense just because it's being aired for the humor in it. I think part of the problem is that networks (and players) were left with a bad taste in their mouths for quizbowl after the experiences with CBI in the 1980's (short questions, hoses, and often recycled questions, ughh....).

As Ken mentioned, since spelling bee's and Scrabble get aired, there should be no problem with question difficulty. On Sunday, Raleigh Charter High School won the PACE National Scholastic Championship in blowout fashion over NAQT HSNCT winner Richard Montgomery High School. Many congratulations are deserved by them (especially since they won a national championship for North Carolina a day before the Hurricanes did it!) But my point is, as a player who was in those playoffs, I still had no idea what most of the tossup questions in the final round were talking about (yes, they were that difficult). All the same, it was *extremely* exciting to watch, and even more exciting to watch RM's previous game against MLW A, in which they won by one question and a difference of a split second.

-Matt

[Ken Jennings]

I think part of the problem is that networks (and players) were left with a bad taste in their mouths for quizbowl after the experiences with CBI in the 1980's (short questions, hoses, and often recycled questions, ughh....).

I often hear this from quiz bowl types. Also the related complaint the networks don't want quiz bowl because CBI were, well, "difficult" to work with.

But I've never really seen this corroborated. My guess is that networks aren't airing quiz bowl because, like the rest of the country, they have no idea it exists, not because they still circulate memos about tossup quality from 1984 (or Richard Reid being a jerk backstage, or whatever).

[TheConfessor]

Another issue might be corporate sponsorship. Gingko Biloba perhaps ?

Unless some advertiser thinks it will make them money it isn't going to happen very likely.

I always thought the ideal sponsor for a quiz show would be Arizona Memory Tea.
http://www.arizonabev.com/csr/prodtype. ... a&cat=Teas

I brought a bottle of the stuff with me to New York when I was on WWTBAM, and chugged it before I got into the hot seat. I was thinking ahead to all the inevitable lucrative endorsement deals, but never got any offers. But even without any corporate backing, I've recommended it to others who were preparing to be on the show. Unfortunately, I sent some of them on a wild goose chase, since Arizona Memory Tea can no longer be found on grocery store shelves. It appears that the Arizona Tea company may have discontinued their Memory brand, which is a great loss to all future game show contestants. Fortunately for me, I still have one unopened bottle at home, in case I ever get on Stump The Schwab or 1 versus 100.

Ed Toutant

[AtomicPunk77]

While it isn't quiz bowl per se, I'll be watching VH1's World Series of Pop Culture with some interest. It's been a while, I think, since a team-based trivia show aired. I'm curious to see how they make it work though I think I remember reading that much of the competition was done on an individual basis. However, if there's a lot of interest I think the door would be open to something like TRASH.

[jcrmoon42]

While it isn't quiz bowl per se, I'll be watching VH1's World Series of Pop Culture with some interest. It's been a while, I think, since a team-based trivia show aired. I'm curious to see how they make it work though I think I remember reading that much of the competition was done on an individual basis. However, if there's a lot of interest I think the door would be open to something like TRASH.

I have often thought that TRASHionals or Trashmasters would make great TV if done properly. Honestly, the world loves geeks. I'm sure there could be much debate on why that is, but it is true. We are just interesting people...for the most part.

[AtomicPunk77]

I have often thought that TRASHionals or Trashmasters would make great TV if done properly. Honestly, the world loves geeks. I'm sure there could be much debate on why that is, but it is true. We are just interesting people...for the most part.

I agree. I've long thought that TRASH would have the best television appeal of any of the QB formats. Even if you're not asking easy questions John Q. Public thinks he knows a lot about movies and sports and would, therefore, be more likely to watch.

I was at a picnic recently where one of the main TRASH folks was present. He brought up the notion that TRASH couldn't go mainstream. I said to him incredulously, "VH1 is doing your show!!!"

Seriously, if tryouts for the World Series hadn't conflicted with TRASHionals I would have been so there.

[dtaylor4]

If you really want to advertise TRASHionals or any other form of quiz bowl, one thing that would have to be kept in check is the possibility of something the FCC wouldn't approve of. I've heard a fair share of questions in both academic AND trash questions that wouldn't fly on TV.

[jcrmoon42]

If you really want to advertise TRASHionals or any other form of quiz bowl, one thing that would have to be kept in check is the possibility of something the FCC wouldn't approve of. I've heard a fair share of questions in both academic AND trash questions that wouldn't fly on TV.

Sure, but it isn't an important part of the game. Many people have called for removing questonable content from TRASH, because it just isn't necessary.

[Megafly]

I think if you really wanted to do a quiz bowl tourney as a TV show you would have to do it reality show style rather than a game show. Following the contestants before and after the game would allow for emotional display without compromising the game itself.

If you did a round robin tournament between teams an had the teams living together, did all the standard reality stuff, you could narrow it down to an eventual 1-1-1 or 1-1 competition for the final win.

A bit like Survivor meets J! with Hells kitchen for flavor.

[ikillkenny]

If you really want to advertise TRASHionals or any other form of quiz bowl, one thing that would have to be kept in check is the possibility of something the FCC wouldn't approve of. I've heard a fair share of questions in both academic AND trash questions that wouldn't fly on TV.

Sure, but it isn't an important part of the game. Many people have called for removing questonable content from TRASH, because it just isn't necessary.

Since TRASH's tournaments are editor written, it wouldn't be a big problem for them to easily get rid of objectionable content. I would personally be very interested in watching TRASH tournaments, but it would require a big logistical change. There would be no way they could air the entire tournament, as there are far too many rounds. Also, the rounds would likely have to be timed or else there would have to be significant editing. The only way I could see them really pulling off showing a tournament would be airing single elimination playoff matches. The round robin style playoff systems in college quizbowl don't make for good television.

Then there's the whole issue of actually getting cameras to where the event is taking place. It would likely have to just be the national tournament that airs, as the regionals are far too widespread and heavily based on what college is willing to host the tournament.

[colonial]

During my run as TRASH business manager, I had conversations over the years with several organizations that expressed interest in bringing TRASH greater mainstream exposure. Unfortunately, most of those conversations barely got past the preliminary stage. Among the various proposals I heard/pitched over the years...

-- A possible game on NTN/Buzztime. The company was very interested in us doing something for them in 2003, and I invited them to the Viva TRASH Vegas/Game Show Congress weekend to give them a sample. Guess they didn't like the sample, as I never heard from them again

-- I was involved in a consortium to put together a "game" channel on one of the satellite radio networks about 2 years ago. The channel would feature not only QB, but also game shows, reality shows, poker, misc casino talk and the like. Unfortunately, by the time the consortium "pitched" the project, the satellite networks went hog wild for big-money sports and name-driven channels (Stern, O&A, etc.) and, well, you probably know the rest.

AFA the World Series of Pop Culture, I did approach VH1 about TRASHionals before I knew about the tape dates and asked if it were interested in doing some sort of tie-in (perhaps the TRASHionals winner getting a slot in the WSoPC). You can probably guess the answer I got.

Content is not a problem, as TRASH has sold tournament packets in the past to charity tournaments in the past. Before such packets are sent, I go through each round and remove questions considered, say, PG-13 or worse in terms of questionable content.

James

[AtomicPunk77]

AFA the World Series of Pop Culture, I did approach VH1 about TRASHionals before I knew about the tape dates and asked if it were interested in doing some sort of tie-in (perhaps the TRASHionals winner getting a slot in the WSoPC). You can probably guess the answer I got.

Dang...would've liked that.

[Will Nediger]

Here in Canada we have Reach for the Top, similar to Quiz Bowl, except it exists only at the high-school level. In Ontario, the provincial finals are aired nationally. There's almost no getting to know the contestants (just a factoid which the host talks about with each player), and it airs on a commercial-free channel, so it's basically 30 minutes of trivia. The ratings aren't high, but it's been on TV for decades now, and shows no signs of being preempted.

Funny thing, though -- it turns out I know a lot more trivia when I'm playing in a classroom than when I'm on national television.

Will Nediger

[Dave Mackey]

Well, I'd watch it, but then I'm weird.

But anyway, for a period of about a decade, one of the hottest shows on network TV was the old "GE College Bowl", which by the time I started watching it was hosted by Robert Earle (but was originated by that noted academe, Allen Ludden). I watched transfixed even though my preteen mind had no idea about any of the questions.

Anyone who's thinking of doing this format on television absolutely has to go through The College Bowl Company.

I'm sure that Richard Reid (son of program creator Don Reid) and Mary Oberembt, who run College Bowl, would like nothing more than to be able to mount College Bowl matches on network television again, but sponsors don't seem to want to bite (with the exception of the Honda Campus All-Star Challenge, which involves historically Black schools and is sporadically televised; the 2006 winner was Morehouse).

[Ken Jennings]

Anyone who's thinking of doing this format on television absolutely has to go through The College Bowl Company.

At one point, College Bowl was publicly telling people that this was, legally, the case: they owned the whole concept and format of "quiz bowl," period. It's not true, though, according to lawyers I've talked to, and it's been over 35 years since College Bowl's branding has been regularly televised, so they're, frankly, irrelevant. My guess is that, if and when quiz bowl returns to TV, College Bowl will have nothing to do with it. (This would certainly please most hardcore quiz players, who are usually pretty vocal about how College Bowl's questions and tournament execution are uniformly lousy.)

[rkd]

Anyone who's thinking of doing this format on television absolutely has to go through The College Bowl Company.

At one point, College Bowl was publicly telling people that this was, legally, the case: they owned the whole concept and format of "quiz bowl," period. It's not true, though, according to lawyers I've talked to, and it's been over 35 years since College Bowl's branding has been regularly televised, so they're, frankly, irrelevant. My guess is that, if and when quiz bowl returns to TV, College Bowl will have nothing to do with it. (This would certainly please most hardcore quiz players, who are usually pretty vocal about how College Bowl's questions and tournament execution are uniformly lousy.)

Unfortunately, the threat of pain-in-the-arse legal hassles could dissuade a small production company or network from signing on, even if it's an empty threat. I think a "true" quizbowl match could gain a small but sufficient following ... not sufficient for a major network, but sufficient by the standards of one of the Discovery networks. But when such a network is choosing which shows to get involved with, any vague threat of legal action against one show could tip the decision against that show.

If one were to pitch a quizbowl (or quizbowly) show, I think one would have to go in with clear documentation to illustrate that a CBI nuisance suit would be thrown out immediately. If the legal issue could be dodged, then it's a pretty good proposition for a small to mid-sized network. No such show (a "real" quizbowl show) is on a national network right now; the potential market is clearly there, based on the success (to varying degrees) of other trivia-based shows; and the production costs are low.

--Raj Dhuwalia

P.S. At a party last year, I happened to end up speaking to a fellow who works in production. I mentioned University Challenge and asked about why he thought there wasn't an American analog of the show -- he said there was a "rights issue," or at least that was his impression. I suspect that might be a general impression among those who have the ability to get a game show into production and on the air. [Edit: I don't know that the "rights issue" comment necessarily referred to CBI -- it could have referred to the producers of UC for all I know.]

[gameshowcongress]

Unfortunately, the threat of pain-in-the-arse legal hassles could dissuade a small production company or network from signing on, even if it's an empty threat. I think a "true" quizbowl match could gain a small but sufficient following ... not sufficient for a major network, but sufficient by the standards of one of the Discovery networks. But when such a network is choosing which shows to get involved with, any vague threat of legal action against one show could tip the decision against that show.

If there is even the slightest chance of some kind of a rights issue, why bother. There are plenty of quiz concepts out there that could be developed that would be close to the feel of Quiz Bowl / College Bowl but would not trample on any intellectual property rights. One that has been built is Buzzer Battle (to be played for charity at the next Game Show Congress on July 15th - see http://www.gameshowcongress.com/Charity ... attle.html ), but one could set something up with 3 players (or 5) on a team, three teams instead of two, and use a tossup/bonus format - perhaps calling it something else if there were any worries about nomenclature. '

Paul